[olug] linux web server management ?

[Jonathan Warren]

On Wed, Dec 18, 2002 at 09:29:18AM -0600, William E. Kempf wrote:
> 
> Jonathan Warren said:
> >  For Redhat
> > you would do the following rpm -i newpkg.rpm.  It will report any errors
> > or problems or missing packages.
> 
> Yeah, now you get to track down the missing packages, repeat this process,
> track down the missing packages for those packages...
> 
> And I've not even mentioned how difficult it can be to track down those
> other dependencies, even with rpmfind.net.
> 
This isn't really that big an issue.  I guess if there are tools to help with this that is good but I haven't ever had that hard a time finding dependencies for a popular application.  Sure when I am compiling obscure dvd ripping applications with barely legal codecs it can be difficult.  If you install the redhat provided rpm's you should have all the required packages redily available.

> >  Most source distributions can be
> > installed by tar -zxvf source.tgz or tar -jxvf source.tar.bz2  cd source
> > ./configure
> 
> And again, track down dependencies, repeat this process ad. nauseum.
> 

The only place I have found this to be overly difficult is when a project has upgraded to a newer version of the popular window managers kde / gnome.  For server applications dependencies are usually not that deep.  The only place I have had chronic problems recently are with the move to freetype2 and and gtk 2.  Other than that compile times are usually minutes and it isn't hard to use freshmeat / google to find any missing libraries.  Just my .02.

> > make
> > make install
> 
> I get the feeling that some folks on here don't care for my criticizing
> Linux, but the criticism is often warranted and can do nothing but
> motivate people to find solutions to the problems.  In this case, there
> are few solutions available.  Debian has apt.  Gentoo has portage. 
> Mandrake has urpmi.  There's a port of apt for RPM based distros (apt-rpm)
> which may help, provided you can find a good apt-rpm based repository for
> your distro (the only one I could find was for RedHat).
> 
> Since switching to Mandrake and using urpmi I find installations to be
> MUCH easier.  The only problem is that, once installed, most packages
> require some configuration as well, and said configurations are often
> arcane and difficult to learn.  The end result has been that most
> installations for me still take most of a full day (some even longer,
> unfortunately).  At least once I've learned how to deal with a package
> I've got the knowledge and notes to repeat the installation in a matter of
> minutes... but the point is that things don't have to be this difficult
> for "newbies" (and I mean newbies to a given package, not newbies to
> Linux... though the latter confounds the problems).  This is one area that
> I think the Linux world really needs to start focusing their attention.

I have gotten to where I personally avoid Mandrake / Redhat because of there package management.  Personally I would like to see a system where dependencies aren't strictly regulated and controlled.  I have contemplated what it would take to keep a package tree ( similar to slackware-current ) that I could automatically build and create my personal distro where I only delt with source.  I haven't used Gentoo but I don't have the time right now to install it.  I find no matter what my base distro is I end up custimizing it to meet my needs.  I find this an advantage personally because no one vender should be able to lock me into there style of packages.  Not everything is available in an rpm and I don't think it should be.  A friend recomended that I backup all source tarballs for use in case of a system restore.  This is an excellent idea.  You can see a history of files applied to a base distro so that a re install doesn't take long.  

I am not sure what your asking for as far as software installation goes but given all the library dependencies / hardware changes / application development that goes into making linux work I don't see how you can change this.  Either your happy with what a distro offers you or, like me, your willing to work more closely with the developers to get the features you need.  If you stick with what is available on a distros disk and pay the 50.00 for installation support you shouldn't have too many problems that can't be resolved and the company will most likely be greatful for the money.  You can usually find reviews of distros shortly after release that always include ease of installation and features.  

If you need features and get them outside the distro than things will be more difficult.  You are essentially foregoing any kind of regression testing and taking your chances.  There is nothing wrong with this but you should do a risk analysis to see if it makes sense.  Do you really need the latest build or can you wait for Redhat 10 when it is included?  The power of open source is to be able to apply new source any time you want.  If that makes you uncomfortable than you should find a distro that works for you and stick with it.  As a developer I just don't see a more practical model to bring the developers and end users together.  Without testing it is nearly impossible to guarentee compatibility between different source packages.  


> 
> William E. Kempf
> 
> 
> 
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-Jon Warren