[olug] Package management was: linux web server

[Eric Penne]

I don't feel the same way as you.  Users use computers to get stuff
done.  Most don't dick around with the computer the way we do.  apt and
urpmi are wonderful tools for these people.  They don't give a rats ass
about dependencies or their hardware.  They just want it to work.  If
it doesn't work then RTFM comes into play but until then these tools
are wonderful.

I personally don't want to dick around with dependencies and I am an
experienced Linux user.  I hate dicking with dependencies because it
doesn't let me "just work on my PC".  

As an admin these programs are also wonderful because you don't have to
dick around with dependencies.  Broken dependencies waste time and time
is money.  

Just because you don't want your computer to be easy to use doesn't
mean that other people don't.  I want applications for Linux.  I want
them to work.  I want them to be easy to use.  I want them to be easy
to install.  Apt provides the easy install for me.  It provides easy
install for newbies also.  

The whole world shouldn't know the internals of a computer or how
dependencies work.  This works both ways.  I shouldn't have to know how
to be the CEO of Wal-Mart, I just want to go there and buy stuff.  I
don't know exactly how atoms that are mostly empty can form together to
make my ass and how those same atoms can hold my ass in the chair
without hitting the ground.  I just don't care.  It works and I like
it.  

Eric

PS I like it better when the atoms form something soft that I can rest
my ass in comfortably.




--- Aaron W DeLashmutt <adelash at cox.net> wrote:
> Not to start a big bashing fest or anything... but;
> I think solutions such as apt get, urpmi, and portage are horrible
> ideas
> for newbies.  Why are you even using linux in the first place if all
> you
> are looking for is ease of use.  There is a such thing as EASY, its
> called windows XP.
> No problem being a noob, everyone has to start somewhere... but read
> the
> docs, howtos, everything available.  Almost all information is
> available, including dependencies.
> You aren't going to learn anything using tools like apt-get except
> how
> to bitch when you can't get something to work... or when a needed
> 'debian package' isn't available.
> 
> These are the reasons the acronym RTFM has become so widely known.
> 
> -Aaron DeLashmutt
> 
> ps.  After this email, Im going to get my warm fuzzy feeling using
> 'Windows Update' to update my libraries and secure my box.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Wiese [mailto:bwiese at cotse.com] 
> Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 4:08 PM
> To: Aaron
> Subject: Fw: Re: [olug] linux web server management ?
> 
> hahahahah, yeah. my point Exactly!!!
> 
> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 09:29:18 -0600 (CST)
> From: "William E. Kempf" <wekempf at cox.net>
> To: <olug at olug.org>
> Subject: Re: [olug] linux web server management ?
> 
> 
> 
> Jonathan Warren said:
> > With linux it is easy to install software.
> 
> No, I'd have to disagree.
> 
> >  You just need to copy the
> > package or source files to the server and either install them with
> the
> > command line package tool or build them and install them.
> 
> You forgot about dealing with dependencies here!
> 
> >  For Redhat
> > you would do the following rpm -i newpkg.rpm.  It will report any
> errors
> > or problems or missing packages.
> 
> Yeah, now you get to track down the missing packages, repeat this
> process,
> track down the missing packages for those packages...
> 
> And I've not even mentioned how difficult it can be to track down
> those
> other dependencies, even with rpmfind.net.
> 
> 
> >  Most source distributions can be
> > installed by tar -zxvf source.tgz or tar -jxvf source.tar.bz2  cd
> source
> > ./configure
> 
> And again, track down dependencies, repeat this process ad. nauseum.
> 
> > make
> > make install
> 
> I get the feeling that some folks on here don't care for my
> criticizing
> Linux, but the criticism is often warranted and can do nothing but
> motivate people to find solutions to the problems.  In this case,
> there
> are few solutions available.  Debian has apt.  Gentoo has portage. 
> Mandrake has urpmi.  There's a port of apt for RPM based distros
> (apt-rpm)
> which may help, provided you can find a good apt-rpm based repository
> for
> your distro (the only one I could find was for RedHat).
> 
> Since switching to Mandrake and using urpmi I find installations to
> be
> MUCH easier.  The only problem is that, once installed, most packages
> require some configuration as well, and said configurations are often
> arcane and difficult to learn.  The end result has been that most
> installations for me still take most of a full day (some even longer,
> unfortunately).  At least once I've learned how to deal with a
> package
> I've got the knowledge and notes to repeat the installation in a
> matter
> of
> minutes... but the point is that things don't have to be this
> difficult
> for "newbies" (and I mean newbies to a given package, not newbies to
> Linux... though the latter confounds the problems).  This is one area
> that
> I think the Linux world really needs to start focusing their
> attention.
> 
> William E. Kempf
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
>   Brian Wiese | bwiese at cotse.com | aim: unolinuxguru
> ------------------------------------------------------
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