[olug] Opinions of MSCIS program at Bellevue

[Eric Pierce]

</rant>

You made some good points.  I was given my current position (web devel.) doing
mostly ColdFusion work.  I told them in the interview that I didn't know CF,
but enough of my other web experience apparently got me in the door.  It was
basically sink or swim, and they had no qualms about dropping me if I couldn't
produce.  Fortunately, I made the cut (going on my 3rd year w/the company). 
Personally, I truly enjoyed the challenge of getting up to speed on CF as quick
as I could.  That's the mentality of most of us on this list I believe.  I
don't mind buying the books from my own pocket either.  If fact, I prefer to
OWN the books, so they go with me.

EP
--- "Jacobs, Robert A." <ra.jacobs at ngc.com> wrote:

> 
> > I have to agree with Jaymz. During the time I was a part time Instructor
> > at Metro Community College there were the two distinct groups of students.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> > But this is more than lazy students, this definitely has to do with lazy
> > people who expect quick fixes done for them.
> >
> > Again - your education is what you make it.
> 
> Well said *and* you hit a hot-button topic for me.  
> 
> <rant on>
> 
> YOUR education is what YOU make of it.  You will find lazy students at
> every institution.  I ran into my fair-share of lazy team-members - I
> even remember successfully protesting the work accomplished by a 
> team-member in my graduate studies at BU.  This team-member did not 
> uphold their share of the work, the presentation was crap as a result
> and I appealed my grade to the professor and won easily and without a
> lot of hassle.  The professor had seen my previous work and knew that
> the work presented was a far cry from the work I had presented only a
> few weeks before.
> 
> The professors are not stupid and, unlike some professors I have had
> throughout my academic career, I have found the professors at BU to
> be more fair-minded.  I waited until the entire class had left and I
> confronted the professor about the awful presentation my team had
> given; she was well aware of who was putting in effort and eschewed the
> "team succeeds as a team or fails as a team" attitude (which in academia,
> in my opinion, always translates to the people who care about their 
> education getting shafted by the ones who do not).
> 
> One of the nice things I saw in my graduate work at Bellevue was a 
> tendency of the professors to provide the students an opportunity to
> rate the members of their team.  If everyone on a team was not pulling
> their weight, it would either become apparent or the peer evals could
> be used to raise a flag for further inquiry.
> 
> If you are after a piece of paper, get a certification.  If you want
> a DEGREE, and the responsibilities that can flow from that DEGREE, 
> then take RESPONSIBILITY for your own education i.e. prove that you 
> are responsible enough to handle the responsibilities that may follow
> from having the degree. Make the effort and embrace the reality that
> a degree is no guarantee of a position (and as you rise through
> graduate school and post-graduate studies, it can become a hindrance -
> "Oh, you're way over-qualified for this position.  Sorry.")
> 
> As far as the "guy with the degree trumps guy with gobs of experience"
> argument goes: this is not always the case.  Unless the guy with the
> degree is hired right into the position without anyone having 
> witnessed his abilities or work-ethic, I believe the guy with 
> experience has an equal or greater chance of promotion.  IT is one of
> those professional fields that still works a lot on merit: what have 
> you done for me in the past and, more importantly, what can you do for
> me right NOW (with an unspoken: I *expect* you to do things for me in
> the future).  Without a degree you may never reach the highest levels
> of your organization but you can still be quite successful (case in
> point: I  have a friend whose income and position are about equivalent
> to my own - the last time we talked about the subject, I think I was a
> bit behind him; I have a MSCIS and he has no formal degree - he has 
> some college work but has not completed a degree - I don't begrudge 
> this man his income; he is a very talented programmer and an excellent
> troubleshooter (his strongest suit, if you ask me).  Would I make him
> a Software Development Manager (SDM)? I don't know. Would he make 
> himself an SDM? He doesn't know either - because he recognizes that 
> his lack of formal education is hindering his ability to work with 
> people above a certain level.  Its not that he lacks the skills, its 
> that he lacks the terminology and practice that were gained in college
> i.e. the rest of us talk in "short-hand" comparatively because we 
> have a common background in theory and programmatics that he does not.
> 
> The most essential skill you learn in university is how to learn.  I 
> think a lot of dead-beats could be eliminated from the CS/CIS world if
> the introductory courses - beyond some basic logic and perhaps a 
> single language course in C, C++ or Java (upon which to base further 
> studies into programming languages) - would ask their students:
> 
>     How many of you love to, or at least are willing to, read 
>     technical manuals for long periods of time?  Better put:
>     How many of you understand the frustration that leads to
>     answers like "RTFM" in online discussions?
> 
>     How many of you would be willing to learn language X 
>     completely on your own - with only the internet, whatever
>     books you are willing to acquire for yourself (out of your
>     own funds if necessary) and your peers to help you?  Better
>     put: thrown into unfamiliar territory, are you willing to
>     find your way out with only a map and a compass or are you
>     going to give up, sit down and take no action until directed?
> 
>     How many of you are willing to read at least two to four
>     technical books a year or subscribe to, and actually read,
>     at least one techical magazine or journal relevant to your
>     position a year? Better put:  why did you come into IT?  For
>     the money? For the right to be thrown out on your ear because
>     of layoffs, outsourcing and H1Bs? For the love of some aspect
>     of this mind-bending, puzzle-solving art?  If you aren't
>     willing to constantly update your skills and stay at least one
>     day ahead of obsolescence, the money you may receive today may
>     stop dry up, without warning, tomorrow.
> 
> Cynical? Perhaps.  I'm as tired as the next guy of picking up the 
> slack for those who are unwilling to do the work they have been 
> assigned and, perhaps more importantly, those who are unwilling to 
> continue to develop their skills; eliminating these people would make
> my job a whole lot easier.  And the truly relevant part of this entire
> rant is:  None of my peers, or subordinates to date, have ever been 
> graduates from BU - the problem has nothing to do with what school you
> go to.
> 
> A degree is a key to a door - those without this key can still jimmy
> the lock to get inside; its just easier to do it with the key.  Once
> you are inside the building, it is your behavior that will determine
> whether you are allowed to stay or not.  The assumption is that the
> guys who have the keys will behave predictably; sometimes the guys 
> who have to jimmy the lock, however, are the guys who *want* to be 
> there and are willing to make the effort to be the ones who deserve
> to remain there.  You never can tell.
> 
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