[olug] Chrome

[T. J. Brumfield]

On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 7:57 PM, Luke -Jr <luke at dashjr.org> wrote:
> I did give V8 mention to its credit, but it's merely a performance
> improvement, not really innovative of itself. Also, it only works on 32-bit
> x86 and ARM.

I'm not aware of any javascript engine on the planet that assigns
classes, or does precise garbage collecting.  Furthermore, placing it
in a virtual machine is another innovation.  Performance is one small
part of what makes V8 special.  It hasn't been ported to other
architectures, but frankly what other architectures does a browser
really need to run on anymore?  PowerPC is becoming a dead
architecture, and most PCs and tablets either run x86 or ARM.  x86_64
support would be nice, but even 64-bit OSes usually use a 32-bit
browser for plugins.  And you could add support for other
architectures since the code is BSD licensed.  I really don't think
you're giving this its due.  You've said on the whole this nothing
special or innovative.  I'm curious what browser's initial launch
you're comparing this, because this is blowing them all out of the
water.

> It uses a lot more memory, at least in theory. And by "reclaiming memory" in
> this context, you must mean "ignoring memory leaks"; there is no benefit of
> having multiple processes if the code is otherwise okay.

Chrome right now is using less memory than Firefox 3 and IE 7 on my XP
SP3 box at work.  IE 8 uses 380MB initially apparently.  Chrome is
sitting around 180 MB.   "More" memory is subjective.  It uses more
memory for separate processes than a slimmed down, basic Webkit engine
that doesn't use separate processes, but separate processes are still
a major advantage.  You suggest that is no benefit to separate
processes.  I think you don't understand.  Separate processes doesn't
just prevent memory leaks, it enables multi-threading operations, it
enables better sandboxing, it makes the browser considerable more
efficient on the whole, and it helps memory reclamation.  Furthermore,
it makes the browser far more stable by killing one process instead of
the entire environment.  I hate when one bad tab kills my entire
browsing session.  To top it off, it helps developers a great deal by
giving them better tools to examine exactly what is going on.  You say
this is no benefit.  Either you're being overtly critical for no good
reason, or you don't understand the multitude of benefits here.

> This is again only a problem with bugs. Why not fix the bugs instead of
> catching them at runtime?

First off, browsers that have been around 10+ years still have
thousands of bugs.  Saying "fix them all" is unreasonable.  New code
emerges faster than bugs are being closed in projects of these size.
Secondly, security models are about far more than browser bugs.  The
browser can't fully control plugins.  The browser can't control what
you code with javascript, nor gears, nor any harmful or buggy code on
your site.  Some people will intentionally create malware, while
others will open themselves to vulnerabilities without realizing it.
Sandboxing is crucial on the web, with or without browser bugs.
Again, you seem to miss the point here.

> That depends on the browser, I suppose, and is only a problem with bad design.
> Konqueror certainly doesn't hang on network or Javascript.

I really love KDE, and want to love Konqueror, but can't use it for
more than 10 minutes without going up the wall.  However, I've
witnessed the same behavior with Konqueror.  If one page is hanging on
a network request, the UI is non-responsive.  I can't do anything.
Other tabs stop.  The browser is one process with one thread.  BTW, I
really hope the KDE devs consider making a dedicated browser.
Konqueror is a super-app that stumbles because it is everything.
They've made Okular and Dolphin, and I imagine a browser might be
next.  Allow konqueror to be a meta-app that changes its UI more
dynamically while pulling kparts from other apps.

-- T. J.
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